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	Comments on: Doing Flash Up in Detroit &#038; SWF Dichotomy	</title>
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	<link>https://jessewarden.com/2006/08/doing-flash-up-in-detroit-swf-dichotomy.html</link>
	<description>Software &#124; Fitness &#124; Gaming</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 04:44:15 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: James O'Reilly		</title>
		<link>https://jessewarden.com/2006/08/doing-flash-up-in-detroit-swf-dichotomy.html/comment-page-1#comment-3677</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James O'Reilly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 04:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jessewarden.com/?p=1039#comment-3677</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jesse, excellent topic and some great points you made.  Ethan, loved your responses, they really hit the nail on the head.

I find code re-use extremely useful when applied appropriately.  Like eating ice cream it needs to done in moderation and too much of a good thing is no good at all.  A best-practice for one project might not be the best-practice for another.  Implementing MVC on a banner ad will do nothing more than waste time and money.  However, importing a bandwidth tester you]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesse, excellent topic and some great points you made.  Ethan, loved your responses, they really hit the nail on the head.</p>
<p>I find code re-use extremely useful when applied appropriately.  Like eating ice cream it needs to done in moderation and too much of a good thing is no good at all.  A best-practice for one project might not be the best-practice for another.  Implementing MVC on a banner ad will do nothing more than waste time and money.  However, importing a bandwidth tester you</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: JesterXL		</title>
		<link>https://jessewarden.com/2006/08/doing-flash-up-in-detroit-swf-dichotomy.html/comment-page-1#comment-3676</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JesterXL]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jessewarden.com/?p=1039#comment-3676</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks a lot for the corraboration, Ethan, very valuable to justify and confirm realities here.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks a lot for the corraboration, Ethan, very valuable to justify and confirm realities here.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ethan estes		</title>
		<link>https://jessewarden.com/2006/08/doing-flash-up-in-detroit-swf-dichotomy.html/comment-page-1#comment-3675</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ethan estes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:57:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jessewarden.com/?p=1039#comment-3675</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jesse, i was nodding all the way through your response! I guess what i was trying to express in my poorly written way is on the one hand you see these great open sourse/free frameworks with al this great OOP/MVC code and you read all the posts about how this will speed development, ease new additions etc. And i think it will-in certain areas and types of projects. 

On the other hand is the reality of my particular industry which is not interested in paying for the upfront dev for a framework-even if you explain to them the cost later on they are okay with it as it&#039;s a project based money structure so that could very well be pulled from next years budget. My clients tend to have about a 4 month view out. Add to that- working with multiple customers who have their on &#039;standards&#039; and your last paragraph is basically gospel. 

It really is a niche industry where flash has grown a unique ecosystem.  It is a compromise to speed some things up with code structures and still allow the animators tools in flash to get the job done with keyframes and code spread out on an organized timeline. I&#039;ve yet to be able to get a flex project pushed through-if we did more corporate business processes type of jobs it might happen.

In  relation to getting different groups to work together- we constantly have to work at having our SME&#039;s and multimedia/programmers try to understand the other&#039;s &#039;reality&#039;. It&#039;s hard but incredibly important and can really help a project be successful.

I hope your job goes well and welcome to the detroit area. 

-ethan]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesse, i was nodding all the way through your response! I guess what i was trying to express in my poorly written way is on the one hand you see these great open sourse/free frameworks with al this great OOP/MVC code and you read all the posts about how this will speed development, ease new additions etc. And i think it will-in certain areas and types of projects. </p>
<p>On the other hand is the reality of my particular industry which is not interested in paying for the upfront dev for a framework-even if you explain to them the cost later on they are okay with it as it&#8217;s a project based money structure so that could very well be pulled from next years budget. My clients tend to have about a 4 month view out. Add to that- working with multiple customers who have their on &#8216;standards&#8217; and your last paragraph is basically gospel. </p>
<p>It really is a niche industry where flash has grown a unique ecosystem.  It is a compromise to speed some things up with code structures and still allow the animators tools in flash to get the job done with keyframes and code spread out on an organized timeline. I&#8217;ve yet to be able to get a flex project pushed through-if we did more corporate business processes type of jobs it might happen.</p>
<p>In  relation to getting different groups to work together- we constantly have to work at having our SME&#8217;s and multimedia/programmers try to understand the other&#8217;s &#8216;reality&#8217;. It&#8217;s hard but incredibly important and can really help a project be successful.</p>
<p>I hope your job goes well and welcome to the detroit area. </p>
<p>-ethan</p>
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		<title>
		By: JesterXL		</title>
		<link>https://jessewarden.com/2006/08/doing-flash-up-in-detroit-swf-dichotomy.html/comment-page-1#comment-3674</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JesterXL]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2006 07:35:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jessewarden.com/?p=1039#comment-3674</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Totally agree, Ethan.  I think 2 areas of improvement that I can see are having someone who can effectively communicate why creating more re-usable components in a design comp leads to more time for use developers to spend on doing the harder parts of the design.

All too often I hear about a negatively perceived engineering group, when said people are all very talented and positive; they just don&#039;t realize the best ways to work with eachother.  That&#039;s totally understandable when you barely have enough time to catch your breath, let alone &#039;fix a process&#039;.

One thing I try to espouse to designers is if they can re-use interface elements, it means the engineering team only has to create those parts 1 time.  That means less development time for a larger portion of the site, and less debugging time.  That then gives the designers more negotiating room to get some of the more challenging &#038; ground breaking features they sometimes don&#039;t get to have implemented.

Lastly, I still have yet to see the point of re-usable code.  Base classes?  Sure.  Like, everything is dynamically driven at a lot of places I&#039;ve seen.  This allows the client to change content on a whim and not have to spend a dime on the design firm since it pulls this information in dynamically anyway; they just have internal IT change a text file, or modify some DB table.

However, the View&#039;s are pretty much fodder.  Yeah, a compact UIComponent is nice, but a List for example changes so much between projects, I fail to see the point.  Again, there are a lot of good base classes that you can use every project, but even the word &#039;class&#039; is hard to justify sometimes.  It&#039;s a tough industry for a traditional programmer to work in, I&#039;ll give it that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Totally agree, Ethan.  I think 2 areas of improvement that I can see are having someone who can effectively communicate why creating more re-usable components in a design comp leads to more time for use developers to spend on doing the harder parts of the design.</p>
<p>All too often I hear about a negatively perceived engineering group, when said people are all very talented and positive; they just don&#8217;t realize the best ways to work with eachother.  That&#8217;s totally understandable when you barely have enough time to catch your breath, let alone &#8216;fix a process&#8217;.</p>
<p>One thing I try to espouse to designers is if they can re-use interface elements, it means the engineering team only has to create those parts 1 time.  That means less development time for a larger portion of the site, and less debugging time.  That then gives the designers more negotiating room to get some of the more challenging &amp; ground breaking features they sometimes don&#8217;t get to have implemented.</p>
<p>Lastly, I still have yet to see the point of re-usable code.  Base classes?  Sure.  Like, everything is dynamically driven at a lot of places I&#8217;ve seen.  This allows the client to change content on a whim and not have to spend a dime on the design firm since it pulls this information in dynamically anyway; they just have internal IT change a text file, or modify some DB table.</p>
<p>However, the View&#8217;s are pretty much fodder.  Yeah, a compact UIComponent is nice, but a List for example changes so much between projects, I fail to see the point.  Again, there are a lot of good base classes that you can use every project, but even the word &#8216;class&#8217; is hard to justify sometimes.  It&#8217;s a tough industry for a traditional programmer to work in, I&#8217;ll give it that.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: ethan estes		</title>
		<link>https://jessewarden.com/2006/08/doing-flash-up-in-detroit-swf-dichotomy.html/comment-page-1#comment-3673</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ethan estes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jessewarden.com/?p=1039#comment-3673</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jesse, really interesting post, i&#039;ve been reading your blog for  a while now and really appreciate your contributions. I&#039;ve been working in the e-learning/software/dataprocessing side of the automotive industry for 8 years. I&#039;ve found that this industry is heavy on the deadlines and they are firm. They are listed in the RFP upfront and they are often brutal-every activity has to be line-itemed often without any real detailed description from the client on what it involves(welcome to the auto industry!). With that situation in mind the professional services vendors like mine tend to have to &#039;throw&#039; good programming practices out the door. I often have to utilize templates from other vendors who have done work for my client before and there is a definate pseudo-development structure i see used more or less across all of the work. A true mix of art/animation and code-in includes, on the timeline, in dynamic loaded assets(loadMovie is my friend!), nested MC&#039;s. It&#039;s not pretty but you know where everything is and if the code is redundant so be it!  Often our users are connecting from dealerships that have 2-5x dial up speed at best which gets chewed into by the overhead of the portals etc. I often am supporting back to win98. The realities of time, scope, and money, target audiance forces this stucture-at least in marketing service, and training as i see it. Coporate level IT system deployments always seem to have more money, time and just have different situations. I&#039;ve been looking for ways to inject more structure into our development frameworks but with every client/dept being different your often basically buildiing a prototype on each new contract. I have several multimedia guys who work with me and i&#039;m always trying to abstract enough code to allow them to make simple calls while building animations and simulations but you have to watch the clock! The downward pressure of pricing in the industry has also forced some clients to accept less than what they wanted by going with a cheaper bid-this causes all the vendors in the industry to cut corners on future bids and as you &#039;Abandon all OOP ye who enter here.&#039; In a few cases a client has been able to get a well crafted template/framework in place but often adding any new functionality is expensive. I&#039;ve developed a kinda angel/devil on the shoulders mentality- i look for ways of bringing coding standards to the project but i also watch if what i&#039;m doing could be handled with procedural code on the timeline with keyframes and allow me to get onto my animation work. I do really think it&#039;s a kind of niche programming/fla/timline/keyframe structure that helps us survive in this industry. Just my 5 cents.
-ethan]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesse, really interesting post, i&#8217;ve been reading your blog for  a while now and really appreciate your contributions. I&#8217;ve been working in the e-learning/software/dataprocessing side of the automotive industry for 8 years. I&#8217;ve found that this industry is heavy on the deadlines and they are firm. They are listed in the RFP upfront and they are often brutal-every activity has to be line-itemed often without any real detailed description from the client on what it involves(welcome to the auto industry!). With that situation in mind the professional services vendors like mine tend to have to &#8216;throw&#8217; good programming practices out the door. I often have to utilize templates from other vendors who have done work for my client before and there is a definate pseudo-development structure i see used more or less across all of the work. A true mix of art/animation and code-in includes, on the timeline, in dynamic loaded assets(loadMovie is my friend!), nested MC&#8217;s. It&#8217;s not pretty but you know where everything is and if the code is redundant so be it!  Often our users are connecting from dealerships that have 2-5x dial up speed at best which gets chewed into by the overhead of the portals etc. I often am supporting back to win98. The realities of time, scope, and money, target audiance forces this stucture-at least in marketing service, and training as i see it. Coporate level IT system deployments always seem to have more money, time and just have different situations. I&#8217;ve been looking for ways to inject more structure into our development frameworks but with every client/dept being different your often basically buildiing a prototype on each new contract. I have several multimedia guys who work with me and i&#8217;m always trying to abstract enough code to allow them to make simple calls while building animations and simulations but you have to watch the clock! The downward pressure of pricing in the industry has also forced some clients to accept less than what they wanted by going with a cheaper bid-this causes all the vendors in the industry to cut corners on future bids and as you &#8216;Abandon all OOP ye who enter here.&#8217; In a few cases a client has been able to get a well crafted template/framework in place but often adding any new functionality is expensive. I&#8217;ve developed a kinda angel/devil on the shoulders mentality- i look for ways of bringing coding standards to the project but i also watch if what i&#8217;m doing could be handled with procedural code on the timeline with keyframes and allow me to get onto my animation work. I do really think it&#8217;s a kind of niche programming/fla/timline/keyframe structure that helps us survive in this industry. Just my 5 cents.<br />
-ethan</p>
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